On Stuff the other day there was an interesting piece on Air Chathams...
But this section here was what interested me...
What are your future plans?
We’ll continue to operate our mainland and Chatham Islands routes, using the aircraft type that suits. We’re also looking at adding a couple of other mainland routes to connect more of regional New Zealand with Auckland.
So which two ports do you think??? I'd guess Masterton as one, but the other??? That's really got me scratching my head.
Yes Steve its a good read. Masterton I agree. I wonder what other town will be large enough to support an AKL service. Perhaps Wanaka with 13,000 and growing fast might be a contender. I can't think of another North Island town big enough left unserved.
ReplyDeleteThey could even open up a Kapiti Coast to CHC service which might do well for them. They did mention it a few years ago.
I agree Jarden - PPQ-CHC and WAG-CHC... I would do a PPQ-CHC-WAG schedule It could then do a WAG-AKL - reverse in the afternoon... Rationale... A lot of Kapiti Coast people are WLG-based business people so an early morning service to CHC could be a winner. WAG hasn't got that same demand... it is more family based travel but the population would justify a service I suspect... Reverse schedule in the afternoon
DeleteGood schedules there Steve. Another good one that might work is Westport to Christchurch a good route for Sounds air as they already have staff in both ports and is a long way by road.
DeleteI don't think Westport would be a winner... look at Coastair... http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2010/04/coastair-tried-to-find-niche.html Air West Coast and Air NZ also tried it.
DeleteI think two airlines competing on a thin route like CHC-WSZ at the same time would not have helped it. But today might be different with just Sounds air solely flying their 9 seater PC-12 with not many seats to fill.
DeleteNegative. Back when Eagle and Air West Coast had tried it, Westport had some big industries. The Cement Works, Mining ect. Cement Works is long gone, Mining is a struggle with lots of negative press, environmental concerns ect... There was more money floating around town, and more people to sell flights too. If Eagle and Air West Coast struggled to get the numbers back then, it will be a hard ask now. Solid Energy even underwrote the flights and it still flopped.
Delete10 years on the Coast for me now, now days usually when I need to fly to Wellington I'll drive to Westport from Hokitika and fly on the direct flight to the capital. Alas I know Buller people who drive to Hoki to fly Air NZ to CHC or onwards to the North Island.
I always thought Sounds could offer a HKK-WLG flight with a PC12. Or even GMN-WLG. Given the poorly timed schedule for the Air NZ transalpine flights since Eagles departure, It may work now days. Unless you fly out of WSZ, its impossible to do a full days business in Wellington. A Sounds Air PC12 between the Capital and HKK or GMN could work now days. Certainly before when Air West Coast tried it, there was a decent schedule out of HKK which connected very well with flights to WLG and AKL. The winding up of Eagle and the 1900D was one of the worse things to happen for Regional NZ. Sounds Air, Air Chathams and Barrier Air are some of the best things to happen to Regional NZ!
The HKK schedule is awful. Not so bad for people coming to do a days business on the Coast, but for Coasters heading off, its poor
Still a tiny PC-12 would not be too many seats to fill for a Westport to CHC service when the drive is like 5 hours between the two. Also I agree a PC-12 could open up HKK to WLG flight. The convenience of having a local flight over using the other coast airport 120 km away would surely suit the time poor business people.
DeleteWKA already has a airlink with Sounds Air. WHK-WLG and PPQ-CHC, or even WAG-CHC? Will be interesting to see what eventuates
ReplyDeleteThey could still support a direct AKL flight alongside the Sounds Air service.
DeleteNot in a turboprop
DeleteWould certainly have to be a turboprop. Air Chathams does not own any jets. Plus Wanaka airport can't take anything bigger than a Dash as the pavement is not strong enough. Also the runway is too short.
DeleteNo one will book tickets on a turboprop to fly WKA-AKL. Airline passengers in NZ are fickle creatures. No passenger appeal
DeleteWell it works ok for other routes in a turboprop. Just look at CHT-AKl a two hour flight mostly over water with no real issues.
DeleteWellington to Christchurch has a a good handful of turboprops (ATR)
DeleteDunedin to Wellington ATR and not to long ago the Q300
Christchurch to Tauranga and Rotorua on a Q300
Invercargill on a Q300
Nelson and Blenheim to Auckland flies over a good stretch of water.
Some very long flights but absolutely no problems at all for the past 20 years of long distance turboprop flights in NZ
Yeah and all flights you have listed are -2hrs, most less than 1.5hrs. AKL-WKA would be +2.5hrs. You will never ever see AKL-WKA flights in a turboprop. ZQN is just over the hill with several flights to AKL with Airbus Jets across 2 different airlines. No one will pay more to fly a turboprop once daily when they can get cheap fares out of ZQN and select a flight at a time that suits them. AKL-WKA turboprop flights will NEVER happen.
DeleteAKL-CHT is a different ball game. We are talking about a remote island where turboprop aircraft are the only logical way to currently get there. And people pay more for it. The Islanders are dead set keen for the introduction of Jet operations
Still no gaurantee that it will Never happen though. You can't use the argument its too far in a turboprop at 2 hours+. Just your opinion even CHC has flights to both ZQN and WKA they are seperate marktes now. During winter the road is often closed between the two towns. If they use a Saab with a toilet on board and service it would work just fine.
DeleteNope, still never happen. Yes the Crown Range is often closed in winter, but the alternative route through the Kawarau is hardly ever closed. If you think that passengers will pay more to fly on a slow turboprop you may need to rethink. Kiwis are price sensitive. It's been demonstrated many many times. Go back even in this blog and you will find many examples of this. It is very simple economics. A turboprop costs more to operate per seat than a A320 Per seat. $200 to fly direct on a 2hr45min flight to AKL, or a $55 fare on a 1hr55min Jet? Kiwis will opt for the latter everytime. And this is the exact reason why we no longer have services to places like Oamaru...
DeleteThe Christchurch argument is completely different. As a WKA resident myself, there is a lot of business travel between the two centers, and the timetable Soundsair is offering is very smart and is conducive to a days business in the Garden City. And it's only a 50min flight. Different ball game, and not one you can compare between flights to AKL.
Another consideration is the QAC hesitation for scheduled flights at WKA. Sounds have had their eyes on WKA for a while, and have only just been able to push it across the line. QAC are mongrels, and seem to kill any idea that threatens the shining jewel in the crown that is ZQN
You never going to get a jet in Wanaka either. Its only going to get props...
Delete+1 I have to agree. You won't see any scheduled turboprop flights between Auckland and Wanaka ever. However they were pushing for direct jet flights in years to come. This would take significant investment of Wanaka Airport, and a lot of public convincing. I believe the locals aren't overly impressed with the thought of Jets flying over the town.
DeleteI'm sure all us AV Geeks would love a Turboprop NZAA-NZWF flight, I mean anyone passionate about aviation would right! But its just not practical and will never be a flyer with the general flying public
One thing is you can never say never in the aviation world.
DeleteOn this one, I have to disagree, and agree with the above comments. Wanaka will never see a turboprop airlink direct to Auckland. It does not make economic sense, business 101. We may in the future see A320 flights into Wanaka, but that will be a while haha
DeleteI agree - WKA-AKL won't work for Air Chathams - it is more an Air NZ jet route when the market is able to sustain it... I wonder if the gap between an ATR and A320 is too big... I wonder if an Embraer 195 would be a good fit for NZ... certainly HLZ-WLG, HLZ-CHC would be a starter. WKA-AKL might work too!
DeleteI would love to see E Jets in NZ! Definitely the routes there Steve, and maybe also routes like CHC-IVC. Love the 195E2s, they are radical machines. Flew one in Norway, and the seat pitch was extremely tight, but they are lovely aircraft all the same
DeleteHamilton to Auckland
ReplyDeleteWithout a interline agreement, HLZ-AKL will never work
DeleteI know Wanaka has a link to Christchurch already but not a service yet to Auckland which could be a market worth going for.
ReplyDeleteWonder how many routes Air NZ has that may get the cut with the current economic situation... But once they dip into that government loan..!!
ReplyDeleteDefinitely feel that Whakatane-Wellington would work along Masterton-Auckland. Possible PPQ-CHC (Loads with the Q300 weren't completely full but my understanding/read was that they weren't exactly light either...) So I am wondering if it was more of a fleet utilization and lack of capacity which led to Air NZ pulling out of that route. Could they work a Whanganui to Wellington?? Air Nelson-Eagle air-Sounds Air failed but could Air Chatham's find the golden bullet and make it work.
Perhaps Air Chathams knows something and has got a heads up from Air NZ. So might be Taupo next on the chopping block and taken over by Chats.
DeleteLet's just say that Air Chats new about PPQ quite a while before Air NZ actually dropped it. Word was going around the hanger as early as Feb. So very possible that Air NZ could drop another route. TUO would be a excellent fit for Air Chats. Will be very interesting to see.... :-D
DeleteAir New Zealand dropping Taupo would never happen, the council for one wouldn't let that happen being Taupo is quite a significant tourist drawcard along with many Aucklanders now moving to Taupo. Pre-covid it was an essential link to the rest of the world through Air NZ and *alliance as well as. In the short space of time, Air Nelson/Q300 took over from Eagle Air 1900s' it has grown significantly to where Air NZ had three flights a day with a 50 seater aircraft compared to the 19 seat Beech. Air NZ is proving to be very popular with more cheap seats on offer..
DeleteIt would be nice to see Air Chats here, Air NZ will be keeping Taupo for the mid to long term.
Timaru and the likes would be more on the chopping block, so to speak than Taupo.
Here is my list of potential candidate's for the chop pending on Air NZ touching the loan grant as well as potential new routes
Te Anau-AKL. Once tourism opens, Air Chats
Timaru-WEL. Great addition for Sounds Air
Oamaru-WEL. Could Sounds Air connect a flight to Wellington
Mount Cook region-WEL/AKL. Another forgotten but growing area that hasn't seen a operator since essentially Mount Cook was brought out and Air NZ stopped flying there. Sounds Air would be a contender with Air Chats to Auckland
Hokitika-CHC/WEL. Sounds Air
Kaikoura-WEL/CHC. Golden Bay air
Masterton-AKL. Air Chats. Long shot CHC
Gisborne-WEL-AKL. Air Chats
Whakatane-WEL. Air Chats
Whanganui-WEL. Air Chats
Hastings-WEL/AKC. Sounds air... That could slip under the radar!!! Scope that southern population catchment
Kapiti-CHC Origin/Air Chats
Hamilton-Tauranga-NEL-NPL Origin.
Air Chats would definitely be going for the high toruist/main connections with Auckland/Christchurch being that it has the twin turboprop fleet and having it's base in Auckland.
Sounds Air I would see, only picking up/trialing the thinner routes predominantly in the South Island that would connect with Wellington.
Origin would be the next Kiwi and connect up those bigger centers that are not connected through a main center
Air Kaikoura already serve Kaikoura to Welly. Perhaps they could try CHC next.
DeleteOn your routes Fraser.... In my opinion...
DeleteTe Anau-AKL. Once tourism opens, Air Chats... NO... too far, not enough reason for traffic... AGREE with the comments about CHC but for Sounds Air, not Air Chats
Timaru-WEL. Great addition for Sounds Air - NO... no need with NZ operating it
Oamaru-WEL. Could Sounds Air connect a flight to Wellington - I'd like to see them try... YES - Once a day, overnight. OAM-TIU-WLG picked up at least 8-10 a day. OAM-CHC-WLG... you lose it in the connection times
Mount Cook region-WEL/AKL. Another forgotten but growing area that hasn't seen a operator since essentially Mount Cook was brought out and Air NZ stopped flying there. Sounds Air would be a contender with Air Chats to Auckland - NO - You need a tourist airline as NM of old
Hokitika-WEL. Sounds Air - NZ should have tried that when it operated B1900s. Difficult while NZ still operate to HKK
Kaikoura-WEL/CHC. Golden Bay air - As stated, Air Kaikoura are offering it... I was hoping to try it this Sunday but flight canned as no punters. Needs Air Kaikoura top operate IFR
Masterton-AKL. Air Chats. Long shot CHC - YES to AKL - No to CHC
Gisborne-WEL-AKL. Air Chats - NO - NZ do it well
Whakatane-WEL. Air Chats - MAYBE - have to compete with cheap fares out of ROT and TRG an hour away
Whanganui-WEL. Air Chats - NO - Dead duck, ask Sounds Air
Hastings-WEL/AKC. Sounds air... That could slip under the radar!!! Scope that southern population catchment - YES - Could work - innovative!
Kapiti-CHC Origin/Air Chats - YES - but Chats or Sounds.... Originair don't fly there
Hamilton-Tauranga-NSN-NPL Origin. YES... Originair could easily do NSN-HLZ and NSN-TRG.... but they are making a hash of PMR-HLZ
As a route out of left field what about Te Anau to Auckland. I am thinking using a combi aircraft though. Its been reported that Te Anau would like scheduled services again but not sure what passenger demand would be.
ReplyDeleteIt might work at say 3 flights per week. Cargo might help with revenue too.
DeleteTe Anau might be too small only has 2000 residents.
DeleteTe Anau is very possible as Air Chathams has been there on many occasions.
Deletehttp://teanauairport.co.nz/gallery/
Just look at the airport website shows the Saab and Convair on the ramp.
If AKL to TEU is fine in the comments here why not Wanaka which is a larger town and closer it doesn't make sense.
TEU to AKL will never happen. As a local of 40 years, there is no appetite for it. We want a Christchurch link, not Auckland. Just once or twice a week would be nice. A survey was commissioned a few years back, and a link to Christchurch was a hot topic, but no one was interested in a Auckland link. Queenstown and Invercargill both have A320 flights to Auckland and have really good fares. It's only a 90min drive for us to either airport.
DeleteWe would love Sounds Air to come a serve our little airport. But with only 2500ish residents in the basin, I'm not holding my breath.
I think that what Jarden referring to regarding photos on the website and possibly has forgotten. Te Anau would have worked very well and would have been on the sights for Air Chats, pre covid.
DeleteI feel that it would have worked quite well. The amount of tourist that wanted to travel there to do the walks etc. I feel that it would have worked quite well, especially amongst the higher end tourism. Once the borders open up and we are back to that level....
Also too
Some of those photos may have been when Air Chats was operating flights for TUCK tours.
Only problem is Sounds Air 9 seater is very limited so the high costs of running a airline makes the seat cost very expensive. A Saab sized aircraft would have been better for Wanaka so to be able to offer lower lead in fares.
DeleteEven for Te Anau to CHC would be better in a Saab over the tiny PC12!
The Tauck tours was once served with a 90 seat Bae 146 jet to TEU from CHC so must have had huge demand once! The airline was Vincent Aviation back then.
So a local of 40 years who is heavily involved in the airport has no idea.... alright then....
DeleteAuckland to Te Anau direct flights will not happen, and are not wanted by the locals. As I said above, flights to Christchurch are desired.
Photos on the Manapouri Airport website are indeed of the weekly Tauck Tours, and also charter work for Fiordland Lobster.
Wow that came off abrasive sorry! ^ makes me sound horrible! My apologies. All I was meaning was that after a lot of surveys in the district, flights to AKL aren't really desired. If we had a Airline say Air Chats for example come to town and say we want to provide you with a Air service a couple of days a week, which destination do you want us to fly too. Surveys and public opinion favour CHC. Both Invercargill and Queenstown both have A320 flights to Auckland often with really reasonable fares. Both airports are only 90mins away. Fares are often pretty good too. Say if a Saab 340 was to do a AKL-TEU flight, the price of that is spread across 34 seats, whereas a AKL-ZQN flight is spread across 171(?) Seats. Simple economics mean the smaller Turboprop flights between AKL-TEU will always be more expensive. And people will do what they have done for years, and drive to ZQN, IVC or DUD to take advantage of the cheaper fares that Jet Ops offer. However a CHC flight would be ideal, and would offer connectivity through Christchurch to absolutely anywhere really (change of airline naturally, but that's not uncommon now) Air Chats and Sounds Air have done really well, even without a interline agreement. Lots of passengers originating in places like WHK, WAG, PPQ, CHT, WSZ, TUO often continue onto other places.
DeleteYes lots of tourists come to Fiordland, but most of them want to see Queenstown as well as Fiordland, so it makes sense for them to start or finish their trip in Queenstown. A lot of tourists really want to get out on the road, and see the amazing vistas from the ground up. The ZQN-TEU drive is popular with Tourists.
Air Milford tried a ZQN-TEU-ZQN scheduled service a few years back. But only did a couple of flights. The schedule and pricing was prohibitive, and also locals wont pay to fly to ZQN, when they can drive.
I cant see Air Chats offering scheduled flights to Te Anau. If we did get a Christchurch link, I think Sounds Air could do a primo job at it with the PC12.
For Air Chats I can see a Auckland to Masterton airlink for sure. The Wairarapa would have had a airlink years ago if they hadn't of chosen Vincent's over Air Chats. I can also see a direct Whakatane to Wellington service. Would love to see Kapiti to Christchurch reinstated. Even with a bad schedule, Air NZ still managed alright loadings. I would love to see down the track a interline agreement between Air NZ and Air Chathams.
Looking forward to the Runway upgrade at the Chats to be done, so we can see Jet Ops out there. Will be sad to see the Convair go though. Many awesome trips out there, including direct from TEU as a Charter with Merv Halliday. I guess the other question will be, will Air Chats operate the ATR to NLK once the Convairs disappear...
When Vincent's flew the BAe 146 for Tauck Tours it brought passengers down from BHE-TEU before returning empty to usually ZQN for the night. Exclusively for Tauck Tour customers only. No one from the public was aloud to book on. Alliance also operated the services using a F50.
DeleteFully understand re no chance for AKl to TEU flight. Perhaps someone should start a petition going and give it to Sounds Air. So they can start flying from CHC. Or would there aircraft be too small?
DeleteInteresting what would be the second airport AIR CHATS will serve from AKL other than Masterton there is no real big town left without a service to AKL in the North Island.
To the TEU local... great analysis of your local situation... especially with you being connected to the ZQN market. Interesting to suggest TEU-CHC. I suspect while there might be a market TEU to CHC for the locals success would be determined by how many CHC-TEU "tourists" it got. Good marketing needed.
DeleteWonder if Tokoroa could work?
ReplyDeleteDoubt it. Many have tried and failed. Not a heap of money floating around Tokoroa. ROT, TUO and HLZ are on 50-60mins away.
DeleteI can definitely see a AKL-MRO airlink, along with WHK-WLG flights. This airline is certainly one to watch. They are awesome!
Look at Pine Air or Buckley Air in my list of airline profiles... Clearly makes the answer NO
DeleteUnless it is Sounds Air with it's Caravan or PC12 or Great Barrier due to the length or the runway.
ReplyDeleteWith the Tokoroa catchment including Tirau and Putaruru almost 20,000, who knows... It could work, but being close to Taupo and Rotorua could be Tokoroa's downfall.